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Just thought I'd start a thread discussing people's impressions of the current storyline.
Overall, I like the mechanics. It's a nice change of pace from the communal decks we've seen for many of the past storylines. I also like how there are 3 distinct aspects. That means that the game is likely to be different (i.e. in the Eye of Hazimel storyline, the storyline mechanic often had no impact on the game). Each of the 3 aspects in Eden's Legacy is interesting by itself, and allowing all 3 together lets people focus on some while ignoring others.
The Laibon clans are off to an early lead (Guruhi 2 and Akunanse 1). I wonder though whether that is mainly due to the Laibon advantage (being able to search your library for any card is very strong), or simply due to the sheer numbers (lots of players are playing Laibon - from tournament reports it seems like a third of players are representing the Laibon, with a lot of Laibon decks you'll statistically see a lot of Laibon wins). What do others think about this?
From what I've read, the Laibon and Motivation aspects have had a significant impact on games, but the Codex has had minimal significance.
October's been pretty slow in terms of storyline events (perhaps exasperated due to shipping issues and trouble getting access to the kits). But during the Imperator storyline, some people complained that holding events near the end of the storyline meant that they had less influence (they'd be playing kingmaker between Count Germaine and Karsh since no one else could feasibly win at that point). Yet despite those complaints, there hasn't been a rush to hold Eden's Legacy events early. So go run your events and have your say now, rather than wait till it's too late to make a difference!
The Storyline Tally only lists 5 events so far. But looking at the White Wolf calendar, there were several previous events that have not yet been reported:
10/18/2009 Eden's Legacy: Boston 10/30/2009 Fall 2009 storyline Bergen, Norway 11/1/2009 Eden's Legacy: Toronto VTES Fall 2009 Storyline Event
Any news on what happened here? Any other storyline results that you'd like to share?
> The Laibon clans are off to an early lead (Guruhi 2 and Akunanse 1). I > wonder though whether that is mainly due to the Laibon advantage > (being able to search your library for any card is very strong), or > simply due to the sheer numbers (lots of players are playing Laibon - > from tournament reports it seems like a third of players are > representing the Laibon, with a lot of Laibon decks you'll > statistically see a lot of Laibon wins). What do others think about > this?
I think the advantage is F*#@ING HUGE! I'm surprised so _few_ players are playing Laibon.
On Nov 3, 11:02 pm, "Frederick Scott" <nos...@no.spam.dot.com> wrote:
> > The Laibon clans are off to an early lead (Guruhi 2 and Akunanse 1). I > > wonder though whether that is mainly due to the Laibon advantage > > (being able to search your library for any card is very strong), or > > simply due to the sheer numbers (lots of players are playing Laibon - > > from tournament reports it seems like a third of players are > > representing the Laibon, with a lot of Laibon decks you'll > > statistically see a lot of Laibon wins). What do others think about > > this?
> I think the advantage is F*#@ING HUGE! I'm surprised so _few_ > players are playing Laibon.
Well, perhaps one inherent limitation is the number of vampires available. Each Laibon clan is stuck with a core of 12 unique Group 4 vampires. And the other clans with Laibon members only have 2-3 members each. Which means that if everyone is playing Laibon, there's going to be a lot of contesting (which is a good thing in this case, as a balancing factor).
I'm also surprised that more decks aren't packing anti-Laibon cards. And I don't mean Mundane or Pallid. But I would normally expect a lot of Camarilla decks using copious amounts of Judgement: Camarilla Segregation. I'd also be interested in seeing Ravnos Anarch decks relying on Shattering. "Oh you search your library for a card? Well now I make you discard it with Shattering before you can even play it!" You can do something similar with Precision or Revelations (though only against your prey).
Maybe now is also the time to discuss whether the storyline is too fixed in favor of the Laibon. In previous storylines, there have been complaints (valid in many cases) about the event being stacked in favor of a particular outcome:
Lambach's Legion was heavily stacked against Lambach Return of Nergal was inherently in favor of Nergal Anarchs and Alastors was heavily stacked in favor of the Anarchs and also Yazid Tamari Rise of the Imperator arguably favored Karsh
It's easier to complain ex post facto when all the results are already in. So maybe it would be more illuminating to discuss now, whether the Laibon clans are a shoe-in for the win because of the special rule?
echiang...@yahoo.com wrote: > On Nov 3, 11:02 pm, "Frederick Scott" <nos...@no.spam.dot.com> wrote:
> It's easier to complain ex post facto when all the results are already > in. So maybe it would be more illuminating to discuss now, whether the > Laibon clans are a shoe-in for the win because of the special rule?
Shoe-in? I'm not so sure about that, they are still the Laibon after all.
I think it would be interesting to give each sect a special something each time a vamp is influenced into play.
Camarilla can look at top card of library Sabbat can look at top card of crypt (or something better...) Independents can bring any card in their ashheap to their hand
Or something. Laibon's is still the best, but perhaps that would balance it more?
On Nov 4, 3:55 am, "echiang...@yahoo.com" <echiang...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> October's been pretty slow in terms of storyline events (perhaps > exasperated due to shipping issues and trouble getting access to the > kits). But during the Imperator storyline, some people complained that > holding events near the end of the storyline meant that they had less > influence (they'd be playing kingmaker between Count Germaine and > Karsh since no one else could feasibly win at that point). Yet despite > those complaints, there hasn't been a rush to hold Eden's Legacy > events early. So go run your events and have your say now, rather than > wait till it's too late to make a difference!
Being one the main organizers of thinks here in Portugal I can only speak about this country. We are going to have ours really late because of many different reasons. -We had as many qualifying tournaments as we could because this year there is a great interest in the EC2009 and all the coordination of VtES has fallen in Domain Lisboa's lap. -The lack of info on Heirs of Blood release, until not long ago. -The EC2009 itself will take many of the players that are usually on tournaments.
All things considered, the timing for Europe was not the best to have the Storyline, as I expect that other countries are having similar problems. Your NAC is done. We are still be busy with the EC, then comes Heirs of Blood and only then we will have the Storyline. I propose you give more time for Europe to do the events, so all of us can enjoy this great aspect of the game. I guess that all the delay of Heirs of Blood really fraked the calendars.
Brum wrote: > All things considered, the timing for Europe was not the best to > have the Storyline, as I expect that other countries are having > similar problems. Your NAC is done. We are still be busy with the > EC, then comes Heirs of Blood and only then we will have the > Storyline. I propose you give more time for Europe to do the events, > so all of us can enjoy this great aspect of the game. I guess that > all the delay of Heirs of Blood really fraked the calendars.
Ben, How about extending the Storyline to Feb.1st, but disallowing HTTB cards to be used in the tournament? Then Europe (or whomever) has an extra month to play their games.
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! http://vtesville.myminicity.com/ Please buy my cards! http://shop.ebay.com/kjmergen/m.html
On Nov 3, 10:55 pm, "echiang...@yahoo.com" <echiang...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> The Laibon clans are off to an early lead (Guruhi 2 and Akunanse 1). I > wonder though whether that is mainly due to the Laibon advantage > (being able to search your library for any card is very strong), or > simply due to the sheer numbers (lots of players are playing Laibon -
Probably both. The advantages to being a Laibon are very significant, especially if there is a key card you want. Our (8 player) tournament had 3x full Laibon decks (2x Fishtari and 1x Akunanse), 2x partial Laibon decks (Assamite and Lasombra), and 3x not at all Laibon decks. I'd not even consider playing a deck with no Laibon in it for this event, as the advantages are just too good to not take advantage of.
> From what I've read, the Laibon and Motivation aspects have had a > significant impact on games, but the Codex has had minimal > significance.
The Motivation cards mean that games are crazily fast--everyone getting +1 bleed or +1 stealth or getting to Rush without cards means that every deck works at hyper speed. The ability to fish cards out of your deck means that whatever your deck was going to do in the first place, it does much quicker (I played Alamut on the 3rd turn of every game).
The Codex is mostly a non issue--one game, I got it first, used it for nothing, and got ousted. The Rush decks used it when they could-- Dave's Fishtari deck won a game 'cause no one ever grabbed it, and then once most folks were torped, he just grabbed it and bled like crazy, which was handy (and consequently, I'll likely put one of these in all my Rush decks...).
On 4 marras, 15:59, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote:
> The Codex is mostly a non issue--one game, I got it first, used it for > nothing, and got ousted. The Rush decks used it when they could-- > Dave's Fishtari deck won a game 'cause no one ever grabbed it, and > then once most folks were torped, he just grabbed it and bled like > crazy, which was handy (and consequently, I'll likely put one of these > in all my Rush decks...).
> -Peter
It works as long as nobody is untapped, you know. I can easily see it working with Guruhi Are the Land-swarm, Spirit Marionette, tap&bleed, etc.
On Nov 3, 10:55 pm, "echiang...@yahoo.com" <echiang...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> 10/18/2009 Eden's Legacy: Boston
Boston's event had a number of folks with last-minute conflicts, so the 6 of us that had gathered for it decided to postpone till a later date, and try for better turnout. We played some "storyline- tournament-style" games instead (ie, we used the motivations, the decks, the laibon rule, and so on, and played a few games). I believe Matt's still trying to schedule the rain-date.
On 4 Nov, 13:04, "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote:
> Ben, > How about extending the Storyline to Feb.1st, but disallowing HTTB > cards to be used in the tournament? Then Europe (or whomever) > has an extra month to play their games.
> Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas > "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles > you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* > "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier > Please visit VTESville daily!http://vtesville.myminicity.com/ > Please buy my cards!http://shop.ebay.com/kjmergen/m.html
That would give us time to have a better turnout and enjoy this Storyline.
On Nov 4, 8:04 am, "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote:
> Brum wrote:
> Ben, > How about extending the Storyline to Feb.1st, but disallowing HTTB > cards to be used in the tournament? Then Europe (or whomever) > has an extra month to play their games.
Lack of kit availability has meant the event got off to a slow start. If people want to play, but are having trouble with scheduling (due to the EC or HttB release events, or whatever) I have no problem letting this storyline run through January.
I won't be banning any sets. Groups that feel like they are missing out on the HttB + Eden's Legacy experience are, of course, welcome to play the event again.
If other organizers would like to see the event deadline extended, they should post here, or email me. If I hear from a few people, I'll extend it.
> > > The Laibon clans are off to an early lead (Guruhi 2 and Akunanse 1). I > > > wonder though whether that is mainly due to the Laibon advantage > > > (being able to search your library for any card is very strong), or > > > simply due to the sheer numbers (lots of players are playing Laibon - > > > from tournament reports it seems like a third of players are > > > representing the Laibon, with a lot of Laibon decks you'll > > > statistically see a lot of Laibon wins). What do others think about > > > this?
> > I think the advantage is F*#!ING HUGE! I'm surprised so _few_ > > players are playing Laibon.
> Well, perhaps one inherent limitation is the number of vampires > available. Each Laibon clan is stuck with a core of 12 unique Group 4 > vampires. And the other clans with Laibon members only have 2-3 > members each. Which means that if everyone is playing Laibon, there's > going to be a lot of contesting (which is a good thing in this case, > as a balancing factor).
Sure, I agree on all counts.
> I'm also surprised that more decks aren't packing anti-Laibon cards. > And I don't mean Mundane or Pallid.
Oddly enough, I assumed other players would assume there would be lots of Laibon and thus some clever people actually _would_ pack Mundane and Pallid. I even considered doing it myself but, as usually, found my master slots too overcommitted to consider doing it. (In retrospect, it might not have been a bad idea; there were at least a couple of instances were such a card might have come in handy.) So in the first tournament, I put in a couple each Orun and Aye. Discouraged by their complete irrelevence, I backed it down to one each in the second tournament I played. Based on my experienced, I suspect I'd probably be strongly tempted to remove them were I to play in a third tournament.
> But I would normally expect a lot > of Camarilla decks using copious amounts of Judgement: Camarilla > Segregation. I'd also be interested in seeing Ravnos Anarch decks > relying on Shattering. "Oh you search your library for a card? Well > now I make you discard it with Shattering before you can even play > it!" You can do something similar with Precision or Revelations > (though only against your prey).
If it fit in with the them of my deck, maybe. The problem is, since you'd need to draw and be able to play it on a turn your opponent drew his special card or very shortly thereafter (in case he didn't use it his very next turn) and mostly those would be very early turns, the whole thing is pretty much a prayer. Not worth going out of your way to do.
> Maybe now is also the time to discuss whether the storyline is too > fixed in favor of the Laibon. In previous storylines, there have been > complaints (valid in many cases) about the event being stacked in > favor of a particular outcome:
No, I don't think it's too fixed. I just don't see why so few players are bothering to play Laibon decks. I think it probably shows that the portion of players who go much out of their way to prepare for the special rules of the Storyline tournament is smaller than I'd thought it would be. I suspect a number of players just grab proven mono-clan decks out of their boxes and go.
> On Nov 4, 10:33 am, suoli <suoliruse...@gmail.com> wrote: > > It works as long as nobody is untapped, you know. I can easily see it > > working with Guruhi Are the Land-swarm, Spirit Marionette, tap&bleed, > > etc.
> Well, yes. But often, folks will have untapped dudes. Unless they are > all in torpor. Which is why it is good for the rush decks.
I wondered about the Spirit Marionette angle. No sightings so far. But, in fact, even after the Storyline is over, it makes me wonder whether the Codex will appear in future Spirit Marionette decks.
On Nov 4, 4:26 pm, "Frederick Scott" <nos...@no.spam.dot.com> wrote:
> I wondered about the Spirit Marionette angle. No sightings so far. But, > in fact, even after the Storyline is over, it makes me wonder whether the > Codex will appear in future Spirit Marionette decks.
Oh, heh--that is pretty funny. I don't imagine that in the Storyline event, there is that much percentage in trying to maximize use of the Codex, as there is nothing saying you'll get to have it. But I can certainly see constructed decks in the future that'll make some good use of it. And matching it with Spirit Marionette is certainly a funny one :-)
On Nov 4, 12:14 am, "echiang...@yahoo.com" <echiang...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Maybe now is also the time to discuss whether the storyline is too > fixed in favor of the Laibon. In previous storylines, there have been > complaints (valid in many cases) about the event being stacked in > favor of a particular outcome:
I dunno--I'd be surprised if the storyline "winner" isn't a Laibon clan--there are only 4 of them, and the advantage to being Laibon is pretty significant. But that doesn't strike me as remotely problematic.
> > I wondered about the Spirit Marionette angle. No sightings so far. But, > > in fact, even after the Storyline is over, it makes me wonder whether the > > Codex will appear in future Spirit Marionette decks.
> Oh, heh--that is pretty funny. I don't imagine that in the Storyline > event, there is that much percentage in trying to maximize use of the > Codex, as there is nothing saying you'll get to have it.
Well, you'd definitely want to be the one to grab the bastard first. It might not be as hard as all that to gain control of it one way or another, though: Democritus, Thanks for the Donation, Mesmerize, Fleecing the Gaje. Or...wait, I have an idea: since you're playing with Spirit Marionette and Heidelburg *anyway*, why not just...?
Also, in case anyone tries to do away with the table copy, don't forget that players get one copy they can add to their decks upon arrival and - since it's now tournament legal - they can just use any copies they can obtain by any means in the deck with which they arrived. Toss in Vast Wealth and it's really not hard to see that you can draw one of your own copies, should you need to.
> On Nov 4, 8:04 am, "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote:
> > Brum wrote:
> > Ben, > > How about extending the Storyline to Feb.1st, but disallowing HTTB > > cards to be used in the tournament? Then Europe (or whomever) > > has an extra month to play their games.
> Lack of kit availability has meant the event got off to a slow start. > If people want to play, but are having trouble with scheduling (due to > the EC or HttB release events, or whatever) I have no problem letting > this storyline run through January.
> I won't be banning any sets. Groups that feel like they are missing > out on the HttB + Eden's Legacy experience are, of course, welcome to > play the event again.
> If other organizers would like to see the event deadline extended, > they should post here, or email me. If I hear from a few people, I'll > extend it.
On Nov 4, 10:59 pm, j-train <jtrain9...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 4, 12:49 pm, Ben Swainbank <vtesst...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > > If other organizers would like to see the event deadline extended, > > they should post here, or email me. If I hear from a few people, I'll > > extend it.
> If you extend the storyline could we run another event if we have > already ran one in our area?
Yes. Even if the event timeline is not extended, you can run (and report) the event again.
On Nov 4, 10:42 pm, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote:
> On Nov 4, 4:26 pm, "Frederick Scott" <nos...@no.spam.dot.com> wrote:
> > I wondered about the Spirit Marionette angle. No sightings so far. But, > > in fact, even after the Storyline is over, it makes me wonder whether the > > Codex will appear in future Spirit Marionette decks.
> Oh, heh--that is pretty funny. I don't imagine that in the Storyline > event, there is that much percentage in trying to maximize use of the > Codex, as there is nothing saying you'll get to have it. But I can > certainly see constructed decks in the future that'll make some good > use of it. And matching it with Spirit Marionette is certainly a funny > one :-)
On Nov 4, 3:22 pm, "Frederick Scott" <nos...@no.spam.dot.com> wrote:
> > But I would normally expect a lot > > of Camarilla decks using copious amounts of Judgement: Camarilla > > Segregation. I'd also be interested in seeing Ravnos Anarch decks > > relying on Shattering. "Oh you search your library for a card? Well > > now I make you discard it with Shattering before you can even play > > it!" You can do something similar with Precision or Revelations > > (though only against your prey).
> If it fit in with the them of my deck, maybe. The problem is, since > you'd need to draw and be able to play it on a turn your opponent drew > his special card or very shortly thereafter (in case he didn't use it > his very next turn) and mostly those would be very early turns, the > whole thing is pretty much a prayer. Not worth going out of your way > to do.
I'd imagine that a Group 2/3 Giovanni deck packing 3 copies of Le Dinh Tho should do pretty decent. Instead of relying on a particular library card, you have a better chance getting Le Dinh Tho in your uncontrolled region. (And he can consistently discard the card that the Laibon player searches for). Hmmmm....
> No, I don't think it's too fixed. I just don't see why so few players > are bothering to play Laibon decks. I think it probably shows that > the portion of players who go much out of their way to prepare for the > special rules of the Storyline tournament is smaller than I'd thought > it would be. I suspect a number of players just grab proven mono-clan > decks out of their boxes and go.
Hey, at least that means those who prepare for the storyline get an advantage!
On Nov 5, 3:59 pm, Ben Swainbank <vtesst...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> On Nov 4, 10:59 pm, j-train <jtrain9...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Nov 4, 12:49 pm, Ben Swainbank <vtesst...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > > > If other organizers would like to see the event deadline extended, > > > they should post here, or email me. If I hear from a few people, I'll > > > extend it.
> > If you extend the storyline could we run another event if we have > > already ran one in our area?
> Yes. Even if the event timeline is not extended, you can run (and > report) the event again.
Yeah, historically (in previous storyline events) organizers have been allowed to run as many events as they would like. Though typically you don't see more than 2 from a particular Prince. (Time constraints and eventual boredom with the storyline remain as limiting factors).
On Nov 7, 11:32 pm, "echiang...@yahoo.com" <echiang...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Nov 5, 3:59 pm, Ben Swainbank <vtesst...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> Yeah, historically (in previous storyline events) organizers have been > allowed to run as many events as they would like. Though typically you > don't see more than 2 from a particular Prince. (Time constraints and > eventual boredom with the storyline remain as limiting factors).
Yes. If a group enjoys a storyline event and wants to play it more than once, they are certainly invited to play and report it a second time. If your group wants to play it more than two times you're certainly invited to do that too. But, in that case, please run it in a league format and don't submit more than two reports.
With the latest results from the weekend, it looks like the Guruhi are now solidly in the lead with 4 wins.
Brujah and Brujah Antitribu are vying for second, with 2 wins apiece.
But don't count out the Akunanse, Assamites, Giovanni, Kiasyd, Malkavians, and Toreador who have already scored a single win each.
Motivated by Gehenna remains the favorite choice among winning decks, having been chosen by slightly less than half of all winners.
I'm actually rather excited by the storyline possibilities and among the top 3 clans I wouldn't mind seeing any of them win. Normally I end up rooting against one of the clans in the lead, like the Brujah in Imperator (boo to Count Germaine! yay to Karsh winning!), or the Ventrue in Millennium Cultist (I thought the Ventrue Antitribu will more deserving).
- The Guruhi, like most Laibon clans, could certainly use a boost. Storyline wise, it would fit nicely with the Lucian element (Helena approaching Lucian to learn more about Lilith). So having Lucian's clan win would fit very thematically with the Edenic overtones.
- Alternatively, if the Brujah win, I could also see Menele entering the stage while he's trying to help Helena.
- Finally, I've always been a fan of the Brujah Antitribu (one of the perpetual underdogs among the Sabbat clans). So I think it would also be cool if they got the win.
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