Ruben had the interesting idea of recruiting from the likes of
disgruntled MtG players. Since there are way too many Magic players
and not enough VTES players, I am on board with this. How do we spot
the right players, get their attention, keep it long enough to explain
the basic rules, then draw them into the game?

My local game store has MtG drafts every month and I'd love to poach
some of the more mature players, so I can see the usefulness of these
tactics.

Brandon

On Nov 5, 2:39 am, brandonsantacruz <brandonsantac...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

There is an article on game demoing, on The Lasombra's website, that
looked rather good.

Saw someone trying to explain V:tES to a couple of M:tG players the
other day. I'm not sure if it's just me, but I thought that trying to
draw parallels between the two games (e.g. locations == enchantments,
equipment == artifacts, disciplines == clolours, etc) seemed like a
bad idea. Why would a player switch over if it's essentially the same
game with a different packaging?

I would recommend putting together demo decks that excludes the more
complicated cards and concepts, and offer M:tG players a chance to try
them out. Then explain the game as if you would to a non-CCG player
and let the prospective player draw xer own parallels.

Perhaps you could try having games there while they draft? Try
pitching it to the LGS as a way to increase their profits (players who
play more than 1 game buys products for more than 1 game), and get
them to allow a bit of space for you guys to be playing V:tES during
the draft events. Then hijack those who wander over to see what is
going on. Preferably have a demo plan that takes less than 10mins
(nice way to get the players hooked while they wait around for the
next draft round to start).

Cheers

YY

On Nov 4, 8:38 pm, YY <the1andonl...@yahoo.com.sg> wrote:

I have tried that in a game store that had alot of LoT5R  players ,but
the LoT5R players were too entrenched to try anything new and the
store wasn't helping for they kept their store inventory at a bare
minimum.

James D Burns
Prince of Scranton

On Nov 5, 5:03 am, j-train <jtrain9...@gmail.com> wrote:

Rapid thought is very good for this as it is very fast paced, thus
naturally overcoming what i have found to be the major objection
amongst (now ex) MtG players

You have to explain to Magic players that VtES is a competitive
multiplayer game, which requires them to develop skills and strategies
very different from Magic. You also have to explain to them that
playing VtES is very different from Magic multiplayer which is
strictly casual and most Magic players quickly become bored. They
associate "multiplayer" with "casual," and "noob."

But I don't think the typical Magic player will find VtES appealing.
How many VtES players find Magic appealing?

Magic has $$$ prize support, that its players like.
Magic has a full propaganda department conditioning its players to
think like good consumers.
Magic players have a lot of consumer confidence in WotC, quite likely
due to said conditioning. They ENJOY being fed advertising candy. They
find the attention flattering.
Magic games last 15 minutes.
Magic cards are designed to be very easily grokked.
Magic cards are designed to satisfy instant gratification.
Magic players have a very rigid notion of "game balance," become
agitated and discouraged if they don't feel like they have a "fair
chance" to win their games, expect to win, play with a lot of ego, and
will likely be completely baffled by what they perceive as gross
imbalances in VtES, and have little patience to be reindoctrinated
otherwise.

Basically, Magic players are conditioned to have a very narrow concept
of "collectable card games," "balance," "strategy," "skill," and
"fun." They are conditioned that any game that deviates too much from
Magic in any of the above will baffle and annoy them. You need to find
more open- minded gamers who have tried several card games, and
therefore probably are playing something they find more interesting
than Magic.

A Magic player is conditioned to spend their mana as efficiently as
possible, and play the cards in their hand at the first opportune
moment. Magic is too shallow strategically to reward having the
patience of a spider, of mass deception and manipulation, of social
politics. If you want to try converting Magic players, you must point
these differences out to them.

The perfect analogy is that Magic players are Kine, not Imbued, and
not Methuselahs. They don't believe vampires exist. The typical Magic
player is a tool. When they play VtES, they act like a tool not like a
Methuselah. Since VtES doesn't reward them for acting like a tool,
they will find more enjoyment from games like Magic, which rewards
them for being and remaining as tools.

On Nov 4, 12:39 pm, brandonsantacruz <brandonsantac...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

My most successful recruiting technique has been to co-opt the store
employees and store owners.  How we turned magic players into VTES
players worked as follows.

1) Magic has great marketing
2) Magic brings alot of players not into just Magic but into gaming in
general, and specifically, it brought those players into that store.
3) Magic has a high turnover rate on players with many players
quitting Magic and gaming in general when their frustration level gets
too high.
4) Rather than have the store lose that customer for some other hobby
(i.e. remote controlled cars, hunting, roller-blading, etc..), you can
extend the customer's spend in the store by offering them an
alternative to Magic that uses almost all of Magics mechanics, so they
can apply what they have already learned, and it was specifically
designed to counter many of Magic's problems (limited card sets,
hostile players, and unsatisfyingly short games).
5) Train the store employees/owner to spot players who are frustrated
and are quitting.  When they are in this highly charged emotioinal
state, the store employee/owner offers them an alternative with all
the upsides but none of the downsides to Magic.
6) The store gets to keep the customer and the $$$ that customer
generates for the store.
7) It's a win-win for the store and the VTES group.

Not everyone is going to like it. The aim is to expose the game to the
most people so that we get a certain proportion of them taking up the
game.

@Dai: what you say is true only for some MtG players. I myself was a
MtG player... I quit after my brother got disqualified from a national
championship because he put down a card and tapped his mana afterwards
- and generally the over-competition and unfriendliness surrounding
the events.

As a long-time magic and v:tes player (who recently quit v:tes and got
back to magic after a years break), and a long-but-not-as-long magic
Judge, I find some posts in this thread disturbing. Wrong attitude to
influence magic players if you don't understand and/or respect their
objectives.

I'm going to be frank. I gave up on v:tes exactly because of lack of
competitiveness, the lack of metagame analysis, the lack of
preparation before tournaments. That doesn't exist in the same way in
both games. In v:tes you focus on your deck first, and on the metagame
second(and just barely, in a very general way), while magic is
completely the opposite. What this means is that a good approach for
magic players is to entice them with the intricate deckbuilding
challenges. In some cases, v:tes deckbuilding can be funnier than
magic.

Secondly, not everyone is in love with the deceiving and politicing
and maneuvering of a good jyhad/v:tes table. That's one of the things
that sets the two games apart the most. Sometimes your deck sucks, but
you can win by convincing a table to do what you want - sometimes by
convincing them to do what you want by making them believe it's the
opposite of what you want. Some people enjoy this, you can attract
some magic players with this, but beware, you can also drive them
away.

Third, in magic tournaments, if you do poorly, build poorly, play
poorly, you screw up only yourself. In v:tes, that's not the same. A
bad player can totally shift a table's dynamics, which can cause much
frustration. This is a point that magic players are most likely not to
enjoy. Nothing one can do about it.

The two games are just totally different. None is better than the
other unless someone is thinking only on a part of the experience and
not the whole. The secret is that each game can appeal to the same
person in a different way.

But again, you'll never attract magic players if you consider their
hobby inferior. It's like playing a losing game from the start - and
very disrespectful also. Would you like to be treated the same way
back, by having people consider v:tes something not worth the time? I
don't think so.

I don't think we are going for the "typical" Magic player, since the
typical one is also happy with the game they are playing...

best -

chris

On Nov 5, 6:38 am, Carlos Santos <haga...@gmail.com> wrote:

For my own part, I don't think that being insulting to players does
any good. If given the opportunity, I would like to tell magic players
why I prefer VTES.

1) VTES isn't about forcing people to buy the latest cards to stay
competitive* by allowing old cards and maintaining a fairly stable
power curve.

2) VTES cards that are needed to make decks at a competitive(or less
than competitive) level are less expensive than Magic cards.

3) VTES has a rich body of stories and RPGs behind it.

For those with the patience to sit down for games about as long as a
board game, the creativity to make a lot of their own decks, and the
social skills to interact well with others, VTES has a lot more to
offer than MtG. There's still something to be said for games that
resolve quickly, which is something that could be developed further
with VTES.

Brandon

On Nov 5, 11:51 am, librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote:

I would have to agree. I have played magic for 14 yrs and vtes for
8yrs and love playing them both. This negative attitude some people
have towards magic won’t help you bring in the average magic player.
Your right you need one that is tired of how magic is played, but
those are not the ones going to drafts at the card shops typically.

The quality you are looking for is a gamer that is willing to play
multiple games. They will have the ability to appreciate VTES for what
it has to offer.

How do you find this type of player? We’ll just keep playing at the
card shops and offer to teach the game to anyone that stops by to take
a look. Your results may vary based on the number of gamers in your
area, but the more you play, the better your chances of finding new
players.

Just my two cents on the matter.

On Nov 6, 1:38 am, Carlos Santos <haga...@gmail.com> wrote:

I agree the games are different, but from my own experiences the
situation at MtG tournaments seemed to be an elaborate Russian
Roulette.  It's all metagame + roll of the dice luck.

You rock up with your prebuilt net-decks (say 4).  Look around the
place and find out what you can about which netdeck other people are
playing, then choose the one you have which you think will survive the
best.  You then play Russian Roulette with a randomly allocated person
and if you're lucky come out in front.  Rinse and repeat.  If you've
picked the right deck, then you're likely to come out in front.  Then
in 6 months time you scrap 2 of your 4 decks, buy 4 boxes of cards and
spend another $50 minimum on ebay to replace the 2 decks that just
died because the cards went out of print.  You then stare at your
empty wallet and repeat.

That's the reason I gave up MtG: I felt like a cash-cow for WotC and
that tournaments were just repeated Russian Roulette.  I don't feel
that from WW & VTES.

Is there anything like ARDB or similar for MtG? Or are you forced to
use long lists for figuring out decks?

On Nov 6, 8:29 am, Blooded Sand <sandm...@gmail.com> wrote:

That's quite a bit off-topic, unless you're planning to use that as a
way to entice Magic players. :-p

I believe Magic has it's own set of programs that are similar to ARDB,
but telling Magic (non-VtES) players they should play VtES because we
have a card search program is like telling V:tES  (non-Magic) players
that they should play Magic because there are less sets to worry about
for most formats. :)

Cheers

YY

Apparently yes, supported by the manufacturer, so it features photos and
updated card text and errata etc etc.  Plus a bunch of other pimp stuff
like sharing with your friends.

http://www.mtgvault.com/

What you get when you are a market leader...

best -

chris

On Nov 6, 7:12 am, librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote:

Hilarious really. This is one of the worst ways to build decks i have
ever seen.
Have just tried this, the search functionality is limited to "can you
remember the name or set it came out of?" Kinda useless actually.

Less sets for most formats? This is the game that has a massive part
of its published items banned at any one point i time, right?

Heh, I guess that's what a quick google search will get you.  Well,
since I don't play MtG, I can't say with certainty there is an ARDB-like
software out there.  However, I would be really surprised if there wasn't.

best -

chris

On Nov 5, 6:38 am, Carlos Santos <haga...@gmail.com> wrote:

Competitive Magic and competitive V:TES may be totally different.
But, everyone in this thread seems to be ignoring multiplayer Magic.

Multiplayer Magic is reasonably/very popular.  And, it's much like
playing V:TES:  table politics, people not playing the most teched out
decks, people deciding whether they care about metagaming or analyzing
the game or not.  It's also easy to modify rules with Magic to
accomodate a lot of different variants.  Free for all multiplayer may
be more common than attack left, but there's nothing to prevent
instituting attack left, gain life and a victory point when your prey
dies, etc. into your Magic group.  The personalities of multiplayer
Magic players naturally tend to be more similar to the personalities
of players of CCGs intended to be multiplayer, so it's not like you
can just say "we will get all of the more mature players".

With this in mind, I'd have to think quite a bit more about how I'd
try to draw in Magic players.  There are different mechanics, and
maybe something about the V:TES mechanics will be more appealing.
V:TES is much more focused on theme.  There is somewhat of a
difference in that a Magic player may not perceive the multiplayer
milieu while there's nothing else for V:TES.

Really, what's going to attract players to the game is seeing and
hearing about people enjoying playing it, which goes back to the oft
talked about idea of increasing visibility and the sometimes talked
about idea of making sure your group is enjoying playing the game.

Of course, I forgot the obvious way to draw in more players.

If you want more players, get more women to play the game.  A
comparative advantage here with V:TES might be the existing male/
female demographics.  Not only do you attract more men to the game,
but you should attract more women to the game.

Marketing campaign for V:TES should totally sell sex since it's not an
area that Magic or many other CCGs can easily compete in.

On Nov 4, 7:38 pm, YY <the1andonl...@yahoo.com.sg> wrote:

I think there are two separate issues involved:

A. Convincing other CCG players to switch to VTES

B. Explaining to them how to play VTES

I agree that drawing too many comparisons to other CCG's might not be
the best strategy for the first goal. But I have found it extremely
useful for the second. VTES is notoriously complicated and there's a
very steep learning curve. Anything that can help players understand
the rules is a good thing. In the past I have recruited and trained
new VTES players and it's always much easier when they have played
other CCG's. I then try to use concepts from the other game to better
explain how VTES works (drawing both similarities *and* contrasting
differences).

Magic is obviously VTES's closest living relative and I often do use
it as a starting point. (i.e. in Magic you have Life and Mana. In
VTES, your Life is Mana, so there's a greater challenge between
allocating your resources and you don't want to overextend
yourself....).

Because of the similarities between mechanics (heck, VTES actually
uses the "tap" keyword rather than bow/rotate/whatever), in the past I
have found that Magic players are the easiest to convert. You should
also emphasize how VTES was Richard Garfield's second game (and that
he fixed some of the oversights from his first attempt).

For other CCG players, it helps to understand the direction they're
coming from. For L5R or Warlord players, you can appeal to the
storyline aspect or the emphasis on (vampire) clans. (You'll have far
less luck with the L5R players who are specifically into the Eastern
samurai-setting though).

Finally, I have always felt that the complexity of the game to be a
major draw (rather than a turnoff). In the past, I've disliked CCG's
because they were too simple. For example, WotC's Duel Masters was
essentially a dumb-downed version of Magic. Spellfire lacked depth
because there was no cost to playing even the best cards. (Magic
refines that by adding a mana "cost" to the card, VTES takes it a step
further because you have to commit pool towards making such an
investment). With this framework in mind, it can be good to recruit
players who have "grown out of" their first CCG and want to move on to
something more strategic and intricate. (Comparisons to Bridge and
especially Go, may also be helpful in getting the point across).

On Nov 4, 10:03 pm, j-train <jtrain9...@gmail.com> wrote:

In L5R, there's a strong attachment to a particular clan. And
individuals often choose clans that they identify with (similar to the
types of characters they would prefer in a game of D&D). Assuming you
can actually get their attention, you can use this to your advantage
by introducing players to vampire clans with similar archetypes to the
L5R clans they favor. (i.e. don't just throw a random demo deck at
them, instead carefully select a deck style that will appeal to the
particular player). Explaining the rich VTES backstory would also
help. For example, you could do something like:

Crab --> Brujah or Nosferatu
Crane --> Toreador or Ventrue
Dragon --> Malkavian
Lion --> Brujah or Gangrel
Mantis --> Followers of Set
Phoenix --> Tremere
Scorpion --> Lasombra or Assamite
Unicorn --> Gangrel or Ravnos
Shadowlands/Spider --> Baali or Tzimisce

On Nov 7, 1:32 pm, Curevei <Cure...@aol.com> wrote:

Yes, VTES can get a lot edgier with the theme and the art (there are
plenty of examples of nudity or scandalous artwork that Magic could
never even come close to approaching). *However*, be aware that
relying on the sex-angle might backfire when trying to recruit female
players (who could end up finding it offensive).

Some generic strategies that might appeal to female players:

- Emphasizing the social and political aspects of the game (while
possibly downplaying the competitive aspect)

- Some might get a kick out of how the default pronoun for Methuselahs
is female.

- Most CCG's have plenty of scantily-clad females for the fanboys. At
least VTES has a fair amount of beefcake for the ladies.

- Emphasize the gender diversity (and balance) among the crypt cards.
Many of the best vampires in the game are female (Arika, Alexandra,
Anneke). Drawing a comparison to board games, that's one of the more
interesting qualities of Arkham Horror. Literally half of the playable
characters (investigators) are female. And besides the occasional
Dilettante or Entertainer, most of them (gasp!) have professional jobs
- the Psychologist, Scientist, Researcher, Athlete, Spy, and Explorer,
not to mention Shaman and Psychic). Among the original Inner Circle
members over half (4/7) are female. Both Regents are female (at least
my impression is that Sha-Ennu is female). Look at how vampires like
Lucinde and Karen Suadela have broken the glass ceiling!

True Love's Face featuring the other gender?  I'm not sure that would
fly - but I think they should try it.

best -

chris

On Nov 7, 8:00 pm, "echiang...@yahoo.com" <echiang...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

Very interesting, I'll see how it goes!

Thanks,

Brandon